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Stacking Cleave And Magic Blast.

Discussion in 'Chapter 13.2 Combat Specialization' started by Gorm Fleshmender, Feb 9, 2017.

  1. Gorm Fleshmender

    Gorm Fleshmender Medic Myths & Legends Mythical | Legendary | Epic Member

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    Do cleaving abilities including the dwarven one handed cleave and magic blast stack when channeling magic blast through a weapon capable of cleaving?
     
  2. Wulfric Hrolfsson

    Wulfric Hrolfsson LarpCraft of Tea Tree Gully Host - Human Barbarian LarpCraft Host '17 Donor Myths & Legends Mythical | Legendary | Epic Member 2017 Waivers Elder '17 Old Waiver

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    Simple answer, YES... This has been discussed before, but I cannot find the section (could have been just mentioned at an Elder's Meeting), but it was a great inventive way.
    But make sure you take all the appropriate steps when using multiple abilities and weapon Channeling...
    If you Incant and Weapon Channel Magic Blast, then strike with Cleave, you have to call out both attacks at the same time... "Magic Blast Cleave" kinda thing.
    Don't forget, weapon Channelling is more expensive than normal casting, and you are putting a lot more into one attack - IF the attack hits a Weapon, and not a Shield - Cleave is wasted, but you still get the 1 Shatter Damage... so not too bad.
     
  3. King Murdoch McArthur

    King Murdoch McArthur LarpCraft of Milwaukee Host, chevalier paladin Natus Gryphe Lore Master LarpCraft Host Transferred Character Myths & Legends 2017 Waivers Elder Lifetime Award

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    Well the incant time would make the it difficult, at minimum complicated. I'd also want to check with Artenen if the abilities are in favt stackable. I'd agree with a stacking of an enchantment and cleave or such. it just seems mechanically complicated to try and do an incantation, then call channeling and cleave. but I digress....I'd just double check that.
     
  4. Validantes DeMorta

    Validantes DeMorta The Dragon of Meadowmere Redfeather Tribe Unseen Hand Guild Myths & Legends 2017 Epic Membership 2017 Legendary Membership 2017 Waivers '17 Old Waiver The Unseen Hand

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    It'd be a call of "Magic Blast, Cleave" or "Cleave, Magic Blast" if the person is confused by what just happened, tell them. Its not that hard to do an incant, and them when you do the attack, call out one, then the other.
     
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  5. King Murdoch McArthur

    King Murdoch McArthur LarpCraft of Milwaukee Host, chevalier paladin Natus Gryphe Lore Master LarpCraft Host Transferred Character Myths & Legends 2017 Waivers Elder Lifetime Award

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    " Its not that hard to do an incant,"
    No they are not hard but do take time.
    As an aisde....It's also mandatory to do an incant on effects and spells that call for it, for most players that is 20-15 seconds of incant depending on level and specific modifiers. For a few it's 10 or 5 sec but it's mandatory and is supposed to be audible. None of this "i incanted quietly to myself" bs and just yell out the spell effect effectively (if not actually) skipping the incant to get a quicker casting time. If you have people not casting or appearing not to cast incants CALL THEM ON IT. We had problem player here that not only never did incants, would just vaugely yell out the effect of a spell, it was vexing to many. Sometimes you just didn't hear it and that happens we all make mistakes, but if it's consistant behavior from a person or persons elders should put a stop to it.

    Incants are not optional or something to get around, have fun with them make it part of your roleplay...my incants may be loosely based on songs form the 70's :) My son is basing his off the green lantern oath and such.

    " and them when you do the attack, call out one, then the other."
    Well since the incant is the casting of the spell, you would be expected to do the attack at the end of the incant...like any other spell. Your not suggesting people do the incant and then hold it and sit there waiting with a spell "loaded" are you? If you can do that then people will just do the incant for whatever out loud before contact (or claim to) and just hold the spell ready and just yell out the spell when cast effectively negating any incant time...and making the casting time abilities pointless. Which means i would be able to walk around with x spell loaded and say silence caster or dispel magic immediately on contact.

    So what i think we're talking here is during a fight "incant incant incant for x seconds. WEAPONS CHANNEL MAGIC BLAST AND CLEAVE" all at once out loud at an opponent with proper incant exceution.

    So we're A assuming that someone stands there and lets you incant for that long at cleave range and B doesn't hit you during the incant and C it's sucessful. It seems excessivly verbally cumbersome at the bare min. Sounds like a great way to burn mana and get killed casting.

    To me the sounds like a convaluted way to make cleave do damage to the person by just hitting their shield. And let magic blast get past the shield. Plus what if it's only the first few points of the shields cleave points? If it's the first hit...what happens to the magic blast that hit the shield, also only seems effective as a last hit on the shield.

    Seems WAY more combat effectrive to cleave the shield down and then just magic blast the shield less opponent.
    If you wanna try it i suppose go right ahead, least until it's reviewed.
    Maybe casting mechanics in general need to be reviewed in the next elder meeting, cuz what we need is longer elder meetings lol
     
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  6. Validantes DeMorta

    Validantes DeMorta The Dragon of Meadowmere Redfeather Tribe Unseen Hand Guild Myths & Legends 2017 Epic Membership 2017 Legendary Membership 2017 Waivers '17 Old Waiver The Unseen Hand

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    a) nothing says the incant has to be verbal (does it? if so where?)
    b) I wasn't talking about holding the spell, cause you HAVE to use the spell once the incant is finished. Just that I have many times used magic blast to break an opponent's weapons, I don't use cleave because not enough players use shields for my character to have bothered with the skill in my area.
     
  7. Serena Valentina

    Serena Valentina Sorceress (mage) Natus Gryphe Lore Master Myths & Legends Mythical | Legendary | Epic Member 2017 Waivers Blogger Elder '17 Old Waiver

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    Please allow me to explain how spells go as A: A higher level mage who has been playing for about 4ish years and B: An author with a good friend known as Merriam Webster.
    What the rules say:
    "Must perform an incantation for ~20 seconds"

    Let me pull in merriam for the definition:
    PERFORM
    verb (used with object)
    1.to carry out; execute; do:
    to perform miracles.
    2.to go through or execute in the proper, customary, or establishedmanner:
    to perform the marriage ceremony.
    3.to carry into effect; fulfill:
    Perform what you promise.

    INCANTATION
    noun
    1.the chanting or uttering of words purporting to have magical power.
    2.the formula employed; a spell or charm.
    3.magical ceremonies.
    4.magic; sorcery.
    5.repetitious wordiness used to conceal a lack of content; obfuscation:
    Her prose too often resorts to incantation.

    And seconds is a measurement of time, shouldn't need dictionary for that.


    So yes, the incantation MUST be spoken since that's what the word means. You are also a higher level player, which means you asking such a thing worries me that you have not been using incantations. If you're just asking cause you've seen others, that's fine the question just set off my back of the head alarm. And unless anything has changed roleplay wise while incanting you cannot attack nor defend yourself. You can walk and move slowerish since you are concentrating on a single spell. Because of that I would say no, you cannot stack them. Your focus is all on the one spell and not so much on the cleave aspect. You can, however, cast your spell, hit your target, THEN cleave afterwards. It would be two different actions as they are two different abilities.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2017
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  8. Artenen Aeolus

    Artenen Aeolus Paladin | Captain of the Magna Navis Lore Master LarpCraft Host '17 Donor Human Race Myths & Legends Mythical | Legendary | Epic Member 2017 Waivers Blogger Elder Host Vault House of the Iron Ring Lifetime Award Mapped

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    I'm so sick of weapon channeling... I'm sick of this being an exploit and center of complaints. Adding this topic yet AGAIN to to the darn elder meeting.

    We should have never allowed that ability to stay in the system after it constantly was being abused. IT WAS DESIGNED TO PREVENT LOSS OF SPELL ORBS and here we are hooting and hollering and stacking and "ya but'ing"

    I hate this ability with a passion.
     
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  9. Serena Valentina

    Serena Valentina Sorceress (mage) Natus Gryphe Lore Master Myths & Legends Mythical | Legendary | Epic Member 2017 Waivers Blogger Elder '17 Old Waiver

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    This is the fourth time that the topic of incantations being done non verbally has come up. It has been brought up in elder meetings so many times we all have been getting annoyed at it's constant uprising. It will be discussed again tomorrow, however so far the decision has been what I stated above: it MUST be verbal.
     
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  10. Validantes DeMorta

    Validantes DeMorta The Dragon of Meadowmere Redfeather Tribe Unseen Hand Guild Myths & Legends 2017 Epic Membership 2017 Legendary Membership 2017 Waivers '17 Old Waiver The Unseen Hand

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    I understand the annoyance on your end, but it gets taken as a "can do actiona, or an avatar the last airbender" sorta thing where people do motions in place of an incant, which can signify someone is casting, but with incant not having the wording that its verbal and has to be, none of our elders have made it clear that incants have to follow its definition, and is left up to imaginations to how you cast a spell, but it must be clear you are casting in some way. So you can see where I questioned the fact they have to be verbal or not.
     
  11. Yiva Whiteraven

    Yiva Whiteraven Cleric Myths & Legends 2017 Epic Membership 2017 Legendary Membership '17 Old Waiver

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    I understand the frustration, but one things I love about larp is the incanting. I hope we don't lose it.
     
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  12. Artenen Aeolus

    Artenen Aeolus Paladin | Captain of the Magna Navis Lore Master LarpCraft Host '17 Donor Human Race Myths & Legends Mythical | Legendary | Epic Member 2017 Waivers Blogger Elder Host Vault House of the Iron Ring Lifetime Award Mapped

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    The very definition of incantation is verbal. Doesn't have to be loud, but your spell is being "made" by the words the caster speaks. Incantations will not go away.

    I'm always going to be pissy about weapon channeling... everytime. You want to start an argument with me, bring up weapon channeling... it ruins my day because I see it as cheating.. the combo of magic and mele. I'm extremely passionate about a balanced rulebook so I apologize for the tone of my posts going sour when weapon channeling gets brought up... it's enough to make me quit playing... that's how strongly I feel it's an exploit.
     
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  13. King Murdoch McArthur

    King Murdoch McArthur LarpCraft of Milwaukee Host, chevalier paladin Natus Gryphe Lore Master LarpCraft Host Transferred Character Myths & Legends 2017 Waivers Elder Lifetime Award

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    "The very definition of incantation is verbal." That is what i have been saying. If there is no verbal component, then there is no way to verify casting time as is perscribed as 20 sec or lower depending on caster skill (experienced, expert or artisan)

    The whole point of channeling was to not loose orbs in the bushes or in deeplight in the dark, and i thought to not whip orbs at people up close when you can almost touch them, not to be used to manipulate the magic rules to augment basic spells into something else.
     
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  14. Artenen Aeolus

    Artenen Aeolus Paladin | Captain of the Magna Navis Lore Master LarpCraft Host '17 Donor Human Race Myths & Legends Mythical | Legendary | Epic Member 2017 Waivers Blogger Elder Host Vault House of the Iron Ring Lifetime Award Mapped

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    That's the only reason we put it in at first. At maywood we would use spell orbs over the large bridge and then down the river they go if missed... it wasn't used on 9 foot pole arms to tear down a shield wall without even getting close that wasn't a thing yet for our group. I call this the "tee hee, touch you" lameness of magic done through weapons.. but whatever, because every tom dick and harry tosses it into their video game... the elders keep it in the rulebook and I doubt the Rulebook Council will change it either. It just means all front line combatants in a unit will have to have magic defense as part of their strategy.

    Sure I'll complain about some of these things I see in game that players are having problems with, but rules don't change unless the rule gang gives the clear. Thing I dislike more than weapon channeling is rulebook changes so... ya, happy that only happens in a 24 month cycle as the system is now stable.
     
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  15. King Murdoch McArthur

    King Murdoch McArthur LarpCraft of Milwaukee Host, chevalier paladin Natus Gryphe Lore Master LarpCraft Host Transferred Character Myths & Legends 2017 Waivers Elder Lifetime Award

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    we should make a video showing correct weapon channeling?
     
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  16. Maliostro Cavaldi

    Maliostro Cavaldi Human Bard -{LarpCraft of Superior Host}- LarpCraft Host Myths & Legends 2017 Legendary Membership 2017 Waivers Elder '17 Old Waiver

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    As a newcomer, I would just like to state that I liked the option to be able to channel by touch. As someone who was never good at baseball and has poor depth perception, I value the option to be able to deliver a spell via a sword or staff. Plus I plan on being more of a "fightin' wizard" so I will be up front with the rest of my troop.

    I realize some might see stacking Magic Blast and Cleave as an exploit, but I can also see it as a legitimate strategy. If you have a troop that is trained in formation fighting, having a war wizard with a pole arm in the second line would be smart. It would be a good way to create an opening in the enemy's front line. But I agree, you -have- to do the incants for the sake of fairness. One, it lets the opposing side have -some- chance to react. "Shoot the Wizard!" Plus, doing an incant is going to let your comrades on the shield wall know something is coming so they can be ready. And who doesn't love shouting "KA-MEHA-MEHAAAA!!!!11!!1!!!one!!!" for thirty seconds while they power up?

    I think the suggestion of doing an instruction video on Incanting and Weapon Channeling is a great one though. People learn better by seeing, and having an official example of how it's done would do a lot to clear up any confusion. I'm from the Teach-One-Show-One-Do-One school of learning..

    OH, and P.S.: If INCANTATIONS weren't an intrinsic part of spell casting, the spell SILENCE CASTER would be useless.
     
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  17. Drift Wood

    Drift Wood '17 Donor Myths & Legends Mythical | Legendary | Epic Member 2017 Waivers Council of the Fortune Provinces Elder '17 Old Waiver

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    I haven't nor will I ever get weapon channeling as a skill. I prefer having the ranged options as I dont like to run if I can help it (lazy for the win). Magic SHOULD be hard to do, require time / gestures / speaking so that entire chapters aren't decimated in a matter of minutes.

    On another note, if all magic *was* exclusively channeled, it would take a lot away from the Enchanting profession as well. Something which is really integral to roleplay, lore and in-game economy.
     
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  18. King Murdoch McArthur

    King Murdoch McArthur LarpCraft of Milwaukee Host, chevalier paladin Natus Gryphe Lore Master LarpCraft Host Transferred Character Myths & Legends 2017 Waivers Elder Lifetime Award

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    last night in the elder meeting the overwhelming consensus was that
    1 incants do have to be spoken, people actually quoted Mal's point about silnce caster.

    2 this is not what weapon channel is for, Artenen was rather emphatic imo, that this kind of ability stacking was not Kosher.

    Drift wood that is a great point about it negating the enchanting profession, i dont' think we even thouht of that.
     
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  19. Wulfric Hrolfsson

    Wulfric Hrolfsson LarpCraft of Tea Tree Gully Host - Human Barbarian LarpCraft Host '17 Donor Myths & Legends Mythical | Legendary | Epic Member 2017 Waivers Elder '17 Old Waiver

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    Also - to add to that matter as it was covered in the meeting yet I wasn't there (saw the replay)
    It is stated you CANNOT stack Magic Blast and Cleave...
    Why you ask?
    1. Magic Blast when Channeled - needs to be done with a light touch.
    2. Cleave - needs to be done as if you are striking with a lot of force (although do pull your blows!!!)
     
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