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One Handed Cleave For Only Long Weapons?

Discussion in 'Chapter 12-3 Dwarf Race' started by Galandorf Redbark, Mar 5, 2017.

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  1. Galandorf Redbark

    Galandorf Redbark Barbarian Fighter Myths & Legends

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    In the rule it states a length requirement. These are Dwarves we are talking about that prefer shorter, heavier weapons! This part of the rule makes no sense as it excludes using a basic one handed battle axe from using it. I think it should be amended to suit weapons dwarves would actually use (sorry a dwarf one handed cleaving with a bastard sword is ridiculous)
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2017
  2. Drake Grim

    Drake Grim Warrior '17 Old Waiver Myths & Legends

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    I whole heartedly agree fine remark galandorf
     
  3. King Murdoch McArthur

    King Murdoch McArthur LarpCraft of Milwaukee Host, chevalier paladin Lore Master Natus Gryphe LarpCraft Host Transferred Character Elder Myths & Legends Lifetime Award

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    "Cleave - Must have 10K XP. Must have bastard weapon or above skill before learning this ability.
    What it does: Allows you to perform a "Cleave" attack. Cleave attacks can be dealt with any weapon of at least bastard length that has a sure 2 handed grip, which look like metal and has a blade or hammer as the striking surface. Wooden looking staves etc. would not be strong enough to cleave a shield. For a cleave attack to count, the striking player must yell out, "cleave" while the weapon is being swung. Both hands must stay on the cleaving weapon for it to count upon impact of a shield. When a shield is hit with a cleaving blow, the shield holder must yell out "shield" to confirm the blow. A cleave attack does one damage to a shield no more. 2 Hands must be on the weapon when saying "cleave" or the strike will not count. If a cleave hit strikes anything but a shield, it does nothing. To break weapons, see the weaponsmith section."

    "Dwarven One Handed Cleave - Must have 50K XP
    What it does: A Dwarf with this ability may cleave with a one-handed weapon (does not require the general cleave ability). The weapon must be over 32 inches in length and must be massive enough to convince Elders that it can be roleplayed to break a shield. A large broad-bladed battle axe, for example, would likely fall into this category."

    "
    One-Handed Weapon
    What it allows you to do: Use one handed weapons.
    Knife (throwing or otherwise) = 15" max (38 cm) & .5 lbs Has 0 shatter points
    Dagger = 20" max (50 cm) & .5 lbs Has 1 shatter point
    Short Weapon = 32" max (82 cm) & 2lbs Has 2 shatter points"

    The rule one handed cleave exists as i understand it, so one handed long was the minimum....so people were not attempting to do cleave even one handed with a shortsword or dagger, as that would just be silly. The weapons are defined in this syetem by length not appearence, so as long as the axe is 32 inches (still less than 3 feet) it is fine, that is still a short onehanded axe. Anything smaller borders on a tomahawk or hatchet....again this would be silly.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2017
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  4. King Murdoch McArthur

    King Murdoch McArthur LarpCraft of Milwaukee Host, chevalier paladin Lore Master Natus Gryphe LarpCraft Host Transferred Character Elder Myths & Legends Lifetime Award

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    and just for the sake of clarity
    Long One-Handed Weapon
    What it allows you to do: Use of Long one-handed weapons.
    Long Weapon = 32.1" (82.1 cm) - 39" (100 cm) & 3 lbs Has 2 shatter points
     
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  5. Wulfric Hrolfsson

    Wulfric Hrolfsson LarpCraft of Tea Tree Gully Host - Human Barbarian LarpCraft Host 2017 Waivers '17 Campaign Member Mythical | Legendary | Epic Member Elder '17 Old Waiver Myths & Legends

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  6. Galandorf Redbark

    Galandorf Redbark Barbarian Fighter Myths & Legends

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    All you have done is re-said the rules. I know the rule and sorry but it still doesn't make sense for a Dwarf to have to use a weapon over 32 inches to one handed cleave. I think a short heavy Axe would be well appropriate to do the job. I def agree that cleaving with a short sword or dagger is silly but that was nothing close to what I was saying. I think something like these should be allowed . 63ebd5c88085e5d556d15af573c482f4.jpeg
    63ebd5c88085e5d556d15af573c482f4.jpeg
     
  7. Drake Grim

    Drake Grim Warrior '17 Old Waiver Myths & Legends

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    I am on the side of galandof redbark here forgive me if I seem arrogant
     
  8. Wulfric Hrolfsson

    Wulfric Hrolfsson LarpCraft of Tea Tree Gully Host - Human Barbarian LarpCraft Host 2017 Waivers '17 Campaign Member Mythical | Legendary | Epic Member Elder '17 Old Waiver Myths & Legends

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    Thats the thing though - even if we DID allow very small hatchets like that, by the rules definition, it would allow a dagger to Break a shield, and thats just very unrealistic!

    Besides, going by a small hatchet - and this HAS been tested by myself with something very similar to that first axe - Your "Cleave" still does VERY little to a shield. The MASS the axe has would only be taking splinters out. Even if it was wielded by a much stronger person, it only splinters small chips off a shield, it doesn't break large chunks.

    I'm sorry, but it's not going to work.
     
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  9. Galandorf Redbark

    Galandorf Redbark Barbarian Fighter Myths & Legends

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    Wuldric I think you miss the point this is a fantasy system so unless you have actually been a Dwarf I think real life comparisons are not really relevant (in real terms even a full swing of a bastard sword is unlikely to actually destroy a shield)
     
  10. King Murdoch McArthur

    King Murdoch McArthur LarpCraft of Milwaukee Host, chevalier paladin Lore Master Natus Gryphe LarpCraft Host Transferred Character Elder Myths & Legends Lifetime Award

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    because the weapon, like Wulfric says, is based on the length standard, that is how they are classed.

    If exception is made for those specific axes then the next guy that tried one handed cleave with a dagger (or other under 32 inch weapon) has merit by the rules that it should be allowed too.

    There are greatswords out there that are classed as polearms in LC because of length, there are pole hammers classed as 2 handed because they are in that length range and spears classed as bastard weaons because of their length. It is the length of the weapon that LC weapons are classed by, not the cosmentic appearence...because in reality they are all just foam around a polymer stick of some kind.

    MOST weapons under 32 inches just wont perform that way. So that is the side on which the rules have come down.
     
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  11. Galandorf Redbark

    Galandorf Redbark Barbarian Fighter Myths & Legends

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    The rule says the weapon has to look like it could do sizable damage, I would argue if the worry is about someone using a dagger then a dagger would be not suitable due to that part of the rule. Anyway it was just an observation I did not mean to have a massive debate about it. Just going off playing a Dwarf in fantasy games for over 25 years as to dwaves not using long weapons. This being an exclusively Dwarf skill I thought it relevent.
     
  12. Maliostro Cavaldi

    Maliostro Cavaldi Bard 2017 Waivers 2017 Legendary Membership '17 Old Waiver Myths & Legends

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    Just to take the apologists stance on this, physics is the real culprit here. The haft of an axe or the length of a sword translates into a simple machine, specifically a lever. Since a lever is a force multiplier, a shorter lever is going to do less work. No matter how big and chunky your axe head might be, a short haft is going to limit the effectiveness of your swing.

    Think about trying to drive a nail. Take a big ol' hammer, but hold it choked up on the handle to just under the head and try to drive a nail. Now take the same hammer and hold the handle down near the bottom and drive another nail. Guess which one is easier and drives the nail harder?

    Consider the pictures you see in fantasy art of what a "real dwarf" would use for weapons. You often see big bearded battle axes and chunky warhammers that look like a brick on a stick. Now compare this to what those weapons actually looked like in a middle ages battlefield context. Warhammers were often very long handled, and had small heads. That is because you wanted a long handle not only for reach but momentum, and the contact surface was small because it would deliver the energy to a small area and be more likely to crumple and puncture armor.

    Plus, I don't think it would be strange for a "real dwarf" to use long handled weapons or swords either. The extended reach would compensate for their shorter stature.
     
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  13. Drake Grim

    Drake Grim Warrior '17 Old Waiver Myths & Legends

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    I like the axes my friend
     
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  14. King Murdoch McArthur

    King Murdoch McArthur LarpCraft of Milwaukee Host, chevalier paladin Lore Master Natus Gryphe LarpCraft Host Transferred Character Elder Myths & Legends Lifetime Award

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    I'm short and i use long swords for that very reason.

    Plus

    The weapon compliment of probably the most famous non disney dwarf on Earth, Gimli
    875e01b0d71e379817e31f942065ad45.jpeg

    Only 2 are one handed and one of those is primarily for throwing.


    Oh crap...i'm short...stocky...grouchy ....wear a ton of armor....work at an anvil and leather bench...grown a beard over night....i horde weapons

    OMG i'm a dwarf
    headdesk
    headdesk
    headdesk
     
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  15. Galandorf Redbark

    Galandorf Redbark Barbarian Fighter Myths & Legends

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    Lets just all be dwarfs with super long katanas and say truce :D
     
  16. King Murdoch McArthur

    King Murdoch McArthur LarpCraft of Milwaukee Host, chevalier paladin Lore Master Natus Gryphe LarpCraft Host Transferred Character Elder Myths & Legends Lifetime Award

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    NOOO not Katanas...now your just being silly :p
     
  17. Galandorf Redbark

    Galandorf Redbark Barbarian Fighter Myths & Legends

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    Awwww but Samurai Dwarves are a thing ;)
     
  18. Frey Toron

    Frey Toron Ranger 2017 Waivers Past Contributor 2017 Legendary Membership '17 Old Waiver Myths & Legends

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    And if they aren't they should be...
     
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  19. Drake Grim

    Drake Grim Warrior '17 Old Waiver Myths & Legends

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  20. King Murdoch McArthur

    King Murdoch McArthur LarpCraft of Milwaukee Host, chevalier paladin Lore Master Natus Gryphe LarpCraft Host Transferred Character Elder Myths & Legends Lifetime Award

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    most Samurai were already right around 5 ft tall....how do you know they were not dwarves? ;) Might have been wahy they were so awesome
     
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  21. Drake Grim

    Drake Grim Warrior '17 Old Waiver Myths & Legends

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    Psh I don't see why the rule cant state that a short one handed weapon can break a shield but it has to have a realistic size
     
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  22. Galandorf Redbark

    Galandorf Redbark Barbarian Fighter Myths & Legends

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    Agree Drake but the PTB say no then not much us mere mortals can do about it.
     
  23. Drake Grim

    Drake Grim Warrior '17 Old Waiver Myths & Legends

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    what I said was a suggestion to the rule makers in a low key fashion
     
  24. Galandorf Redbark

    Galandorf Redbark Barbarian Fighter Myths & Legends

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    I do hope they consider our request. To me the rule should be if it a chunk looking weapon (machete, broad axe, heavy mace or hammer) it should be okay as long as it looks the part it should not have to go on length. But we will just have to wait and see.
     
  25. Drake Grim

    Drake Grim Warrior '17 Old Waiver Myths & Legends

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  26. Wulfric Hrolfsson

    Wulfric Hrolfsson LarpCraft of Tea Tree Gully Host - Human Barbarian LarpCraft Host 2017 Waivers '17 Campaign Member Mythical | Legendary | Epic Member Elder '17 Old Waiver Myths & Legends

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    While we do understand what you are saying, there is no way we can include that and make it fair. So we are ruling it out. Sorry guys.
    Because weapons are decided by Length as for rules, that's how it has to be.
     
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  27. Gorm Fleshmender

    Gorm Fleshmender Medic Mythical | Legendary | Epic Member Myths & Legends

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    I'mon the side of if the weapon could be used to cleave normally then it has the mass to cleave one handed. It doesn't need to be a axe or hammer. In actual combat you can cleave through a shield with a one handed sword strike if the force is there.
     
  28. Grath Dragous

    Grath Dragous Orc Warrior 2017 Waivers 2017 Epic Membership Elder '17 Old Waiver Myths & Legends

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    Ok im going to put my two cents in. and this is coming from someone that played D&D since expert(preAD&D), the main thing to think about is the rule says it has to be over 32 inches long, and by the rules a long weapon is anything 32.1 and larger, so its simple make the weapon (or buy one) thats 32.1 inches or longer. it is as simple as that. and as an add on as it just popped into my head, say you have an axe thats 24 inches long but looks impressive as all get outs, either modify it so it extends the handle or talk to one of your friends here about doing it.
    also consider for any But he dwarf they have to use bastard sized weapons, which means at least 39.1 inches or longer, so yeah i think the dwarves get a nice bonus for only having to have 32.1 inches

    And in regards to this, you have to realize there are some that like to stretch any rule that is given any leeway. So yes the elders, hosts and higher do enforce the rules and for good reasons, even if we do not understand or always agree with them. The best example of this that i have seen is simply, orc by the rules are the strongest of the player races, they are even allowed to dual wield 2-handed weapons, but they can not do a single handed cleave. now as a player of an orc i felt jilted over this, until i talked to my local host and he walked that what was required to do a cleave. once i spent the time to think about just the body mechanics involved i saw why the rules were set up that way and agreed with it.
     
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  29. Galandorf Redbark

    Galandorf Redbark Barbarian Fighter Myths & Legends

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    Thank you Grath for pointing out some good points. No one previously had pointed out that cleave is usually Bastard sized or above so that actually supports my view on the Dwarves being an expert in shorter weapons. I still think it should not be the length but the weight and look of the weapon that counts but accept the rule and will deal with it.
    I do accept totally that some players like to stretch the rules but the rules set as it is at the moment is far from complete. There are small parts occassionly missing in some areas and interpretation of the rules is often quite varied from the posts I have seen. This entire system is in beta testing basically so I think rather than Elders and hosts attacking or just dismissing players suggestions a little flexibility should be allowed for not only the sake of smooth role play but also enjoyment as well. (and I do mean slightly like no going to dwarven cleave with a Dagger or having your orc using 2 x 10 foot spears dual wielding them etc)
     
  30. Maliostro Cavaldi

    Maliostro Cavaldi Bard 2017 Waivers 2017 Legendary Membership '17 Old Waiver Myths & Legends

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    If you start saying it's all about looks, you will have people building weapons to take advantage of that exploit. And then what happens when it's "all about looks" and I bring a big thick chunky SHIELD to the game and I want to argue your weapon can't possibly Cleave my shield because my shield is reinforced with metal bands and rivets and super cool awesome spikes and it's made out of 3 layers of cross grain wood bound with hardened resin. Where do we draw the line? What if I argue when you insist that you should be able to cleave my shield no matter how awesome and reinforced it looks that you're being a "rules nazi" and you're limiting my fun with your shortsighted interpretation of the rules? Also, if it's all about the way the weapon looks, my question is, are you willing to roleplay that you're swinging around 12 pounds of ax on a 12 inch handle, when someone else is coming at you with lighter, faster short swords?
     
  31. Grath Dragous

    Grath Dragous Orc Warrior 2017 Waivers 2017 Epic Membership Elder '17 Old Waiver Myths & Legends

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    ok a suggestion, i do not know if you are aware of it or not but the rules do get looked at, both in changes in wording (clarifying wording), changing general rules and adding new things. so if you have a suggestion, bring it to your local elders, they can bring it to the people that look at these rules. now something to know the rules do Not get changed quickly, it may take a year or more if the group agrees it needs to be changed.
     
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  32. Artenen Aeolus

    Artenen Aeolus LarpCraft of Sheboygan Host Lore Master LarpCraft Host 2017 Waivers Human Race '17 Campaign Member Mythical | Legendary | Epic Member Host Vault Elder Blogger House of the Iron Ring Myths & Legends Mapped Lifetime Award

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    Ok... I'm going to chime in and then close this because it's all over the place. While this is a fantasy system, we play this game in the real world and thus a small axe cleaving a tower shield will look out of place because our rules are still set to the very real physics of which we are bound. This is why we don't have dragons and flying stuff... because in the real game it would look and act kinda corny or it wouldn't be well represented.

    This is the constant struggle with a fantasy system being represented in the living. It's why I can't help but just laugh at the systems with "this invisible sword of smite does 25pts of armor damage and 48pts of health damage" kinda stuff. It's too hard to follow in the real world. In a video game, sure... because the system is doing the math and can connect the dots, but until we have fully augmented reality larp (about 5 years away yet), doing these complexities just isn't feasible.

    Does that mean it's a bad idea? No. It just means it's hard to do in a larp when we're using the real world as a baseline.

    You want dwarf stuff to break shields? It's doable, just not with a really small axe. Maybe they can take a weapon or shield apart... the the only race that can disassemble this stuff without an attack... something unique like that which is still fun but easy to follow from a roleplay and story standpoint. That's what we're trying to do here.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2017 at 2:43 PM
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