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Ideas For Evil Alts

Discussion in 'LarpCraft of Wisconsin Rapids, WI USA' started by Conidor Firerock, Jun 27, 2016.

  1. Conidor Firerock

    Conidor Firerock Barbarian The Crimson Spear Myths & Legends

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    I was curious if people had come up with ideas for making evil alternate characters. I like the idea of playing either an anti-hero or even playing a villain who is not an npc. However, the two things that I worry about is how to make an single evil alt who will not get perma-killed their first game (due to the fact that they are evil and most players will probably want to prevent them from doing their evil deeds/not want to revive them) as well as how to make a group of evil alts that will not unbalance the game against the good players. (If your entire colony or faction for instance makes an evil alt to play together, how do you prevent that from being unfair against players who's games might not have enough players to deal with that level of threat or want that kind of character vs character in their games) Should players who plan to play evil alts contact colonies ahead of time and ask if it is appropriate for them to play their evil alts? I am just curious because I have been toying with the idea of playing an evil alt for quite some time, but just never figured out an effective way to do it that wouldn't either make things less fun for me or less fun for other people.

    Any advice on this is welcome! :)
     
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  2. Shaden Chaser

    Shaden Chaser LarpCraft Host '17 Donor Top Contributor Myths & Legends Mythical | Legendary | Epic Member 2017 Waivers Elder

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    For your first half, when you want to make a character for nefarious purposes keep these in mind for there survival.

    First: No character should be classified as "Good" or "Evil"

    Good and Evil is a matter of perspective/culture, timing, and upbringing.
    An act/group considered "Good" in one culture may be considered "Taboo/Evil" in another culture and vice versa. (Example: Paladins vs Vampires)
    Again what is considered "Good/Normal" at some point in time may be actually/become "Evil" in the long term, and again vice versa. (Example: Slavery)
    Then there is upbringing. No one is born good or evil. A person/creature simply grows with there experiences, and whether or not they believe their experiences were right or wrong based on where they are coming from.

    Second: Is your character Crafy or Open on there views
    Crafty: Gets others to do dirty work, covers their tracks, and tries to predict consequences before or as they happen.
    (Examples: Rogues, Masterminds, Power Hungry Chancellors)
    Open: Openly opposes the ideals and beliefs of other members, and does everything in their power to prove themselves right/just.
    (Examples: Paladins/Clerics, Rebel Leaders, Power Hungry Chancellors)

    Third: Alone, Allied, Leader, or a Follower
    Most villains have expendable lackies, an influential ally, or maybe a more powerful overseer. Going alone, especially in LARP, tends to be a bad idea for villains. Unless of course he has a massive home field advantage, ambush, or trap ready in advance.

    In the end it all comes down to role playing.
     
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  3. Artenen Aeolus

    Artenen Aeolus Paladin | Captain of the Magna Navis Lore Master LarpCraft Host '17 Donor Myths & Legends Mythical | Legendary | Epic Member 2017 Waivers Blogger Elder Host Vault House of the Iron Ring Lifetime Award Mapped

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    First, colony is now an "in game" name. Characters can now make colonies so the term for game areas are "hosts" or "hosted areas" so we can keep colony in the game.

    Ok, with that out of the way, I have an example we lived through. My alt is Blaz Delmonte an undead necromancer who is not really a threat to many, even though he is a high-level character. Blaz has played many adventures and started 6 years ago as one of the first NPCs' but he had a story. He was then joined by Milroth and Razule and eventually Enixus Nex. Coincidentally, these are the same members as the house of the iron ring (among others). With the "undead are not necessarily bad" stuff that went into the rulebook in 2014 and the switch from evil magic to just mana magic, it opened up a TON of roleplay options. You see, Blaz use to be Bartholomew Montoya. Back in the early days to even HAVE an undead you had to first kill a living character (that was a mess on the backside of the site.. let me tell ya lol).

    Blaz and crew make up the House of the Undying but are all the same friends of House of the Iron Ring and [USERGROUP=65]Iron Griffin Legion[/USERGROUP] because as players, we work together and know how to work as a team.

    HOWEVER... as much fun as it is to switch from main to alt, doing so in game presents some serious challenges. First, you can't access any coin from your alt, most of the time it's impossible to keep separate. 2nd, the host needs to approve the use of your alt so you don't screw up the game. How does one "screw up a larp"? Let's say that as our mains (good guys, mostly) are all in a game and the game is dull. Instead of playing a NPC, you want to switch to your alt kit. This works better than an NPC because you have history with this character, you know the roleplay, you don't have to be force fed any plot line, you just go out to live the goals that character has (which would be opposite of your main most times). Alts are usually designed to cause friction or drama much like an NPC does BUT these are controlled by the player, not the host. It's far more real feeling because players have time to think about what they can and will do. Now, this is where it gets tricky... the player has to be aware of the game environment if they jump into their alt.

    Problems to avoid:
    • Wearing the same kit as your alt. This is usually bad if done more than once. You get one shot to explain why you are wearing someone else's clothing and the end result is usually pretty bad for the alt. To play an alt, as a host, I require a full wardrobe change minus footwear. This is different than the Book story of a character dressing up in disguise (Mordekai Fox / Ufnar Kargaroth incident). (see video here)
    • Switching to an Alt mid game. This can be troublesome to some games and will send some hosts into cardiac arrest. If you're going to play your alt, play it the entire game most of the time. For Blaz and the HoU, we have a dark dome and are looking to make an entire camp for undead. Imagine seeing that in game, but also imagine having to set up 2 full camps of canvas... and then leaving one camp empty half the time. Not real good.
    • Players of Alts approach a new level of responsibility. You're going to meta game... go ahead and disagree with me but you will. How? Let's take Blaz, he's a wimp by himself. He's slow and fleshy... even in armor he still pretty much sucks. BUT have him raise an army AND couple him up with 10 others who can do the same, now you have a situation where those characters can take out almost an entire game worth of people. This is why Undead are nerfed and more nerfed for 2016. BUT it could happen with any other race too. The balance becomes really tricky with larger numbers. It's why so much stuff counters and breaks and depletes powers... to balance stuff out. Ok back to the point here... If Blaz and a gang of 10 switch to their alts mid-game A. where the **** are the good guys to defend... B. No one saw it coming or could prepare for it C. Most of the time it wouldn't make sense and D. take a good chunck of the players and make them bad, wipe everyone out and then you have the same dull game you had before but NOW you have players pissed off in real life because it feels like a setup.
    This can go on and on but honestly, you need to pick a character and stick with it for an entire game. Alts are easy to make but once you realize you need a new story, new garb, new way of playing... it's a lot harder than it looks on the screen.

    But we did it and you can too. I'm not asking people to ask a host "is it ok for me to play my undead'? That's not right. Asking is needed when you want to switch DURING a game (most of the time the request is denied btw). I have yet to play an entire game as a full undead camp but we came close at Aladon last year. The undead outnumbered the living and even turned Manit INTO undead (first time that's actually happened). We had to watch closely that the living characters were in real trouble and if the undead would have pushed really hard, we could have completely killed all the living in the game.

    You can watch it unfold here


    Once the real fighters began to play undead, the slope got REALLY slippery. This is the delema we must train players to deal with both in the "your character will die, now what do I do" and "You have the power to screw up the game to the point where people won't come back". It's a tricky situation without the right training. This training is what we aim to do here coming up in the university. Being brash and cocky as a player will split the player base. Happened with many games, many times all over the world. LarpCraft wants to address this so players can be trained on how to handle this situation.

    What would an all undead game look like? I've often wondered this myself. We got a taste of it at Aladon, but PC alts and bad guys are not the same as an NPC who is designed to die at some point. This is why the grounds we are treading on must be done so correctly.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2016
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  4. Conidor Firerock

    Conidor Firerock Barbarian The Crimson Spear Myths & Legends

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    Thank you Artenen and Shaden. Sorry for the "colony" mix up, I sometimes get the old language thrown in with the new. I'll make sure to call it a host for now on.

    I really appreciate the ideas on alts and the dangers they possess. I'll be honest, I have been interested in making a completely different character with different motivations/ect and different garb for a long while now, but I have held off on it specifically for the fears of messing up a game and not knowing how to survive or how to back off if I was doing too well. These are excellent points and I find them to be very interesting. Looking forward to checking out the Larpcraft University when it is up and running!
     
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  5. Mordekai Fox

    Mordekai Fox Human Rogue Meadowmere Colony Elder Transferred Character Unseen Hand Guild Myths & Legends

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    It's worth noting that survival is key to a villain. They have a goal, and it is usually frowned upon by "men with small minds".

    Knowing who to trust, and for how long is the key to this style of play. Eventually, you will be betrayed. Will you be ready?

    Also, never underestimate the power of being useful. People are less likely to care that the vampire or undead just ate a monster if they provide resurrections cheaply. If you fill a need, no one wants you dead.
     
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  6. Shaddie Arbel

    Shaddie Arbel Mage Moonlit Pack Myths & Legends Blogger

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    Something along the lines of what Mordekai was saying is that usefulness is very helpful. It also helps not to raise too much suspicion. So knowing what makes people worry is good to figure out. For example, in Midland most people wouldn't take something offered to them without hesitation or fear. It's little things like that that can help.

    I played an elf that treated humans and orcs like trash but would give his life protecting another elf. The humans and orcs didn't like him but the elves did. So picking allies, if able, can be pretty useful.
     
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  7. Shaddie Arbel

    Shaddie Arbel Mage Moonlit Pack Myths & Legends Blogger

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    For an "evil" character I do agree that evil depends on how you look at it. But it helps to use the nine alignments as a general idea.

    Lawful evil- Uses corruption and a position of power to maintain that power/do as they please. A good example is the emperor from star wars.

    Neutral evil- Does whatever they have to do to whoever gets in their way. A good example is Voldemort.

    Chaotic evil- Does whatever they want to whoever they want whenever they want and only exist to destroy. A good example is the joker.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2016
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  8. Vutha Melander

    Vutha Melander Necromancer Myths & Legends Mythical | Legendary | Epic Member Lifetime Member

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    As for an alt. Mine is an undead necromancer. He does what he needs to keep his friends safe. otherwise he's a lawful citizen that only uses things to protect himself/his own. Evil for me is all character based. from the progression of the character there was a slipping and losing of humanity an loss of morals. if someone needs to die, so be it.

    It's all a matter of perspective. It takes a village to make a man, also to lobotomize one.
     
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  9. Mordekai Fox

    Mordekai Fox Human Rogue Meadowmere Colony Elder Transferred Character Unseen Hand Guild Myths & Legends

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    In point of fact, it only takes one man with a sharp scalpel and certain scruples to lobotomize.
     
  10. Shaddie Arbel

    Shaddie Arbel Mage Moonlit Pack Myths & Legends Blogger

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    To make something evil my best advise would be to find what would commonly be seen as bad or evil.

    Most people don't appreciate a guy going around murdering people whenever he feels like it. That's an extreme example though.
     
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  11. Conidor Firerock

    Conidor Firerock Barbarian The Crimson Spear Myths & Legends

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    I agree. I used the word "evil" loosely to determine things that most people wouldn't not think of as heroic, like an anti-hero or a villian. I have an idea but I am still toying with it to make a full personality that will work instead of being a stereotype. I also agree that just pillaging and killing won't get you far before you are permanently out of comission, and most forms of "evil" would rarely be seen doing such without good motivation or reason. (unless you are the joker)
     
  12. Wulfric Hrolfsson

    Wulfric Hrolfsson LarpCraft of Tea Tree Gully Host - Human Barbarian LarpCraft Host '17 Donor Myths & Legends Mythical | Legendary | Epic Member 2017 Waivers Elder

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    I'm in a situation which is a little different, having recently become a Host, I have decided to use my ALT (Yes... an Undead Necromancer... I see this as common ground for a few people ;) ) to become the main contention in my area. Now, in his own mind, he's not Evil, he just has his own goals, and you can bet they will clash with the new Settlement... I mean for one, he believes he was here first, so it's his land... hahaha...
    Now, I have decided to keep him as a Scrolled Character, so I can personally slowly upgrade him with Skills... but the thing is... I wont get to play him much (lucky he's already high enough to be a pain)
     
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  13. Artenen Aeolus

    Artenen Aeolus Paladin | Captain of the Magna Navis Lore Master LarpCraft Host '17 Donor Myths & Legends Mythical | Legendary | Epic Member 2017 Waivers Blogger Elder Host Vault House of the Iron Ring Lifetime Award Mapped

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    It's funny because, in all actuality, the rulebook doesn't really say anything story wise about "evil" at all. Nothing in this system is "good or bad" it just is. Even undead come from the underverse, not a **** (because there is no **** here).
     
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  14. Mordekai Fox

    Mordekai Fox Human Rogue Meadowmere Colony Elder Transferred Character Unseen Hand Guild Myths & Legends

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    Yes. It does roll off the tongue easier than nonethical antagonist, however.
     
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  15. King Murdoch McArthur

    King Murdoch McArthur LarpCraft of Milwaukee Host, chevalier paladin Lore Master Natus Gryphe LarpCraft Host Transferred Character Myths & Legends 2017 Waivers Elder Epic Profile Lifetime Award

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    "First: No character should be classified as "Good" or "Evil"
    Good and Evil is a matter of perspective/culture, timing, and upbringing.
    An act/group considered "Good" in one culture may be considered "Taboo......"

    I disagree, ambiguity breeds sameness. Having no structure is not organic it's just a mess. This moral relative way of looking at characters is how you end up with so many characters being vaguely (bad word Edited) non committed just kinda selfish demi villians. Like a world of tort lawyers and car salesman...you know like the real world. You also end up with lots of badguys claiming they are not bad guys, and refusing to have any consequences visited on them for their actions.

    It's also how players who feel squishy about committing to a moral code get around the problem of screwing over other players or playing for their own convenience. How they make in game reasoning for stealing killing etc etc etc. It's also how people play a raging murder hobo, and then try and make their character not a villian somehow, it's the same moral equivalence we see all the time in the real world from actual criminals terrorists etc etc etc. It's also the cliche of the bad guys are really good guys and the good guys are really oppressors drivel. It's the nothing is right or wrong so no one is ever bad and everything is dependent on the situation...until the bad guy comes and gets "you" and then it's a tragedy or an evil "ambiguous" character gets called on their shenanigans, then they are being picked on. (thinking of a certain pirate former player we had).

    When you make a character find the core of that character, their alignment and what makes them tick. Being good or evil is at the core of that character, the character may not believe they are evil (like suicide bombers think they are righteous) but you should know if a character is good or evil when you make them. Not everyone who is a bad guy is the red skull, or vader. He may just be a bar keep that pays his employees very little and spits in his patrons drinks and lies about his taxes. Just like not every good guy is Batman or King Arthur, some are just the quite man who helps his neighbors and takes care of his mom, gives to the poor and reads his kids stories at night. Not every decent person is a super hero, not every bad guy is a serial killer. Most people fall somewhere between totally good or totally evil.....find where the character fits. Not everyone is really committed to the extremes, but you should know the morality of why you are creating.

    The old DnD alignments worked great.

    Look at Ming, he's a banker and a biss man. He's kinda selfish and greedy but he does provide the service paid and fulfills his contracts and job specs to the letter and does his job to get repeat biss. So i'd put him an Lawful neutral, maybe lawful evil on a bad day.

    My daughter is a walking Random event generator....you have no idea what she will do. But she is kind and sweet so Chaotic Good.

    Murdoch is a retired soldier and he is an old man who just wants to retire and ride and play with his kids. He was once a zealous warrior, now he is mostly just tiered and wants no one to get hurt. In his youth he was probably Lawful good, maybe even chaotic good when angry. He once fervently believed in his cause and king, but all that is gone. Now, he just wants quiet and peace and people to be safe. So probably Neutral good.

    Ralik is a brutal warrior but he is loyal to the death to his leige lord, he's not real concerned with what is legal or liked. He does his duty and protects those who are in his company no matter the personal cost. He has a code he flollows (it may not be the common code) and obeys orders without fault, so again Lawful neutral.

    Now my alt Soth, Soth is crazy. He was a hero, he was a warrior. Now risen from the dead, he hates what he is and hates those who survived him and is racked with pain and anguish. He still fights with honor as well as he can remeber it and is an approximation of his former living chivalrous self, but he will kill eat your face, you and tell your mom how fun it was. Then lament what he has done and become. So he may be lawful evill to Chaotic evil when he's really crazy.

    Knowing the morality of the person you are playing at being will really help you flesh them out.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 5, 2016
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  16. Serena Valentina

    Serena Valentina Sorceress (mage) Lore Master Natus Gryphe Myths & Legends Mythical | Legendary | Epic Member 2017 Waivers Blogger Elder

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    ^that
     
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  17. Ralik Ravenwolf

    Ralik Ravenwolf Human warrior Akuma Forest Host Natus Gryphe LarpCraft Host Transferred Character Myths & Legends Mythical | Legendary | Epic Member 2017 Waivers Elder

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    I am good by the culture i grew up in that culture held honor above all but if u are not my people u are an enemy or a person to get to know but it depends on how i am approached but killing is not bad if it is deserved an ya my mission and orders dictate that anyone at eskers saw that and how donaven did things he is the same
     
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  18. Ralik Ravenwolf

    Ralik Ravenwolf Human warrior Akuma Forest Host Natus Gryphe LarpCraft Host Transferred Character Myths & Legends Mythical | Legendary | Epic Member 2017 Waivers Elder

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    As for an alt dont really have one yet haven't gotten that far
     
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  19. Artenen Aeolus

    Artenen Aeolus Paladin | Captain of the Magna Navis Lore Master LarpCraft Host '17 Donor Myths & Legends Mythical | Legendary | Epic Member 2017 Waivers Blogger Elder Host Vault House of the Iron Ring Lifetime Award Mapped

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    "Good and Evil is a matter of perspective/culture, timing, and upbringing."

    Ya, so write up your characters ideals on those things and boom, we have the bottom line.
     
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  20. Conidor Firerock

    Conidor Firerock Barbarian The Crimson Spear Myths & Legends

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    The old dnd stuff I also find useful for characters. Some different ideas I had (like you said) were that even evil people aren't "totally evil." They care about things, possibly have family and friends they want to protect, but they do it at the expense of everyone else. Evil people can be kind (say, to their children who they want to give everything too) and good people can be cruel (say, a drill seargant who is hoping to toughen up his men so that they will come back alive from a war).

    Action definitely seems to be the primary indicator of alignment based morals, but reasoning behind it should play a role too. I do agree that both coming up with "are they evil" and "how they view their actions" are both great ways of finding how to play your character for what you want them to be as a player and how they would react to things in character as well.

    After mentioning the different types of evil and good from Murdoch's post it gave me an interesting concept of playing an evil character with good quirks. For example, maybe playing an undead who has a soft spot for children and will help/protect them, but murders everyone else. Seems like having a quirk and a reason for a quirk that goes against the traditional good guy/bad guy concept could really add to roleplay. But overall I agree with you Murdoch that ambiguity does breed sameness and having some "rules" for your character (be it an honor code or some kind of ideals that one strives to follow who stay away from) can really help determine how an alternate character could be played differently from a primary character. I'm glad for all the ideas here because I did not just want to make another Conidor Firerock that had a different race and different abilities, but actually was a different person. I appreciate all the effort everyone has put into responding to this post :)
     
  21. Artenen Aeolus

    Artenen Aeolus Paladin | Captain of the Magna Navis Lore Master LarpCraft Host '17 Donor Myths & Legends Mythical | Legendary | Epic Member 2017 Waivers Blogger Elder Host Vault House of the Iron Ring Lifetime Award Mapped

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    ALso keep im mind as a player develops into a larper, they start to understand these things more. You'll see new players strike first and ask questions later or not think of the fallout when something they do causes a major thing in game to happen and then suddenly they get mad when they realize their characters actions follow them... sometimes for a super long time to the point where some players stop playing because they now boxed themselves into a box...

    All of this needs tutorials, podcasts, videos, blogs and all the things we used to do. I would preach this stuff over and over and over but when the content went away and new people came in... they didn't have the tools that some of us had when we started. Once the website is back up, that is the meat and potatoes of what we're doing with LarpCraft.
     
  22. Shaddie Arbel

    Shaddie Arbel Mage Moonlit Pack Myths & Legends Blogger

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    The reason I find alignment paired with action over intent more useful is because your action will be the clearest thing people notice about you.
     
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  23. Giovani Guida

    Giovani Guida Human Cleric Myths & Legends

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    One thing i have seen at games is a group has a set of "bad guy" alts. They pop in skill a bunch of pc's and leave ingame go back to thier alt's before retaliation can happen.
     
  24. Mordekai Fox

    Mordekai Fox Human Rogue Meadowmere Colony Elder Transferred Character Unseen Hand Guild Myths & Legends

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    Doesn't that seem like metagaming?

    Being able to act without fear of reprisals?
     
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  25. Giovani Guida

    Giovani Guida Human Cleric Myths & Legends

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    In my opinion yes
     
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  26. Giovani Guida

    Giovani Guida Human Cleric Myths & Legends

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    There was much anger. Me especially since my character go permed by a group hitting up from the back in the middle of a major combat. then going oog.
     
  27. Artenen Aeolus

    Artenen Aeolus Paladin | Captain of the Magna Navis Lore Master LarpCraft Host '17 Donor Myths & Legends Mythical | Legendary | Epic Member 2017 Waivers Blogger Elder Host Vault House of the Iron Ring Lifetime Award Mapped

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    You'd get kicked for doing that in our games.
     
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